The Illegals

[faithofjob777]

What is so sad about this debate is the fact being ignored: even if all people were "legal" in the United States, the welfare state mentality will still pervade when people are depraved.  Europe is already showing, in all its Caucasian glory, how this is true indeed.  Criminals do not have to be "illegal"; all that they need is a corrupt heart contemplating the next evil plan for tomorrow.

Psalm 36

36:1 Transgression speaks to the wicked deep in his heart;
there is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For he flatters himself in his own eyes
that his iniquity cannot be found out and hated.
3 The words of his mouth are trouble and deceit;
he has ceased to act wisely and do good.
4 He plots trouble while on his bed;
he sets himself in a way that is not good;
he does not reject evil.

Why are there illegals doing much crime?  The same reason the "legal ones" commit much crime too.  "He plots trouble while on his bed."  Even at rest, that is all he thinks about.  Without fear of God, he lusts to do more and more evil.  The problem then is not the rise of illegals, but the disintegration of morals among the legals.  Is it any wonder really that more wicked people want to come to America, "land of the freely wicked people" like any other nation on earth is?

Evil attracts and begets evil.  But good also does the same thing. I came here as a pagan with an idealistic view of America: a nation of hardworking and honest people.  I hated my own country for all its corruption.  I sought to stay here legally, because I wanted to take part of what I thought made America great.  I coveted to do honest and hard work even as an atheist.  

Not that I did not realize there were evil people here too. I just thought that the good people here tend to always defeat the wicked.  The corrupt cops here are nothing compared to the more openly wicked police force in the Philippines.  Politicians here are exposed easily for their misdeeds.  There is no overt torture or assassination of those who seek to expose them.  The media can easily speak without much trepidation, in comparison to their counterparts working in more tyrannical regimes.

But with time, this idealistic view of mine crumbled.  Especially with my conversion to Christ, I have soon grasped that America is not better than any other nation, just richer.  The rich and poor people do not steal openly as much as they do in poorer nations, only because theft has been made legal by the increasingly welfare state.  Add to that adultery, murder, idolatry, and blasphemy, sloth and many other sins, all of which will only get worse even if all the illegals are given the boot. Freedom of speech really meant freedom to spit on Christ by mocking Him or ignoring His honor as King of Kings, with the consequence of the entire nation losing fear of God and disobeying His true commandments.

The only "advantage" of booting all the illegals out is that the population of doing evil is reduced numerically, even if only for a time.  Yet neither Sodom nor Babylon nor Israel was evil because of the aliens within them, but because the citizens themselves were all evil.  So would I sadly give the same judgement for any other nation in history, including America.

If the "conservative Christians" would recognize that it is not the mere "illegal" issue that is the problem here, but rather, the corrupt nature of any man regardless of his citizenship (especially including the great majority of those who claim to praise Jesus Christ), perhaps they would be more credible in their stance about illegal immigration.  But as it is, there is just much pointing fingers on the evils of others, without having those fingers point back at their own wicked selves.  Wicked aliens can only come to overtake the nation, when the nation and its churches are already deeply wicked without them. 

Jaime

[Rberman]

The illegals should be booted because it undermines the rule of law to have a law and then not enforce it.

[faithofjob777]

I agree.  It is very enticing to come to America though, and making it really difficult makes it even more enticing, especially when one's lifelong alternatives are seemingly darker. I remember how in desperation, a fixed marriage with a willing American citizen (whom I can divorce later) was suggested I should do, if I did not make it using my line of work.  Many take that route, but I did not think that was right to do.  Interestingly enough, I dimly understood the value of marriage though I was an atheist.  (I was even willing to marry a friend when she got pregnant from a married man, to save her from disgrace and so she won't have to abort her baby. I had no other agenda, but that's another story. Atheists can have some goodness in them too, for they are also made in the image of God.  But I digress once again...)

I guess my point is: if we enforce laws that we do not follow, is it because we already reject God's laws and make our own instead?  I think that is where the problem is.  The illegals should be given the boot, yes; but would that really make America more righteous?  Or is it just limiting disobedience to be rampantly done by the real citizens alone?

I think of North Korea, which is probably most punitive of illegal aliens (eg, the American journalists 'saved by Clinton'). But such purification from illegals did not involve purification of North Korea's citizens, who are mere lemmings obeying their leader's commands. My concern is that getting rid of illegal aliens, while most certainly the important manifestation of stedfastly enforcing the law, can only be a step forward when the nation knows what other more important laws the citizens must obey.  I am not suggesting a dramatic overnight overturning of all ungodly laws.  But there seems to be a lack of awareness that reformation in society by the power of God comes as one unit, and not piecemeal here and there.  

Evil does not grow haphazardly, but methodically, like leaven knowing its own way. This may be too simplistic a picture, but I do think that the evil did not begin with the illegals, but with professing Christians and pagans who have seen how they can use men for a cheap price to get a bigger profit.  The professing Christians and pagans are not to blame alone either; they are likewise stripped of their advantage by the increasing regulations of the state that control and cater to special interest groups. So it is no surprise that illegals would come to play here. To the tune of Cyndi Lauper's song, "Illegals just wanna have fun" too.

So the reformation must begin with the citizens themselves.  No stone must be left unturned, because the illegals are simply the symptom of a deeper problem in the nation already ruined by other deeper evils.  It would be like Sodom kicking out its illegals, and Babylon doing the same thing in her own land.  But neither is more righteous or wiser after doing so.

Jaime

[Tyleragain]

By "the illegals" do you mean the millions of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ, who have names and families and hopes and dreams and heartbreak, and they happen not to be here legally...do you mean them?

[faithofjob777]

By "the illegals" do you mean the millions of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ, who have names and families and hopes and dreams and heartbreak, and they happen not to be here legally...do you mean them?

Yes, them (cool snide remark, btw).  I agree with your statement, but don't forget to add that they are also those who are corrupt and vile like the real citizens are.  Let us not paint the illegals as mere victims.  You choose the path you choose, and you keep your integrity regardless of circumstance, IF you are a real man of God.  We cannot blame the garden of Eden or the serpent as to why Adam and Eve sinned.  Nor can we blame the environment causing poverty as the most important reason why men disobey the commandments of God or men. A wicked man will sin regardless of the situation you put him in; temptations and trials put to test and reveal who we really are.

________________________________________________________________

When Jesus saw the multitude, He had compassion that they were all lost without a shepherd to guide them.  And yet He lashed out on all of them for their shallow and worldly desires.  Compassion and disgust can go together.  It is like being thoroughly disgusted with an alcoholic who comes to the ER unkempt, smelly, spitting on and cursing everyone trying to help him.  Yet there is compassion, in sincerely desiring to help him out of his physical illnesses and twisted outlook in life.

The generalizations of Jesus did not mean that absolutely all the Jews were simply so evil, but that as a group, they were just as wicked, or even worse, than the pagan Gentiles.  So when I paint the illegals in a bad light, it is really just a prelude to exposing the real American citizens in a worse light.  There are no victims here, just opportunists from all sides.  

If this is not true, I would want to hear some kind of wisdom from the illegals or the legals about where they are disobeying the Word of God.  But all that I see is self-righteousness, about how one group is the victim, while the other group counters by asserting that they are the victim.  Guess what, illegals and legals? (Including myself, of course.) You are all guilty before God.  If you are made and conformed to the image of God, get rid of your self-righteousness, stop the pity party (you know, the boo-hoo, woe is me! everyone is evil except me! attitude, you all should know that because you all play the part sooo well), and repent where you have been wicked in your disobedience to the laws of God.  

Unless of course everyone can say that they are really as pious and kind as Mother Teresa of Calcutta.  Yes, I am using her name, but only to lower the standard. If I use the name of Christ, or even the apostle Paul, not a single person has ever come really close to that goal in this day and time.  If there was, we would already see the beginning of a true revival threatening the kingdoms of fallen men.

Jaime

[faithofjob777]

By "the illegals" do you mean the millions of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ, who have names and families and hopes and dreams and heartbreak, and they happen not to be here legally...do you mean them?

WHAT THE MOST PRESSING QUESTIONS ARE

I hope we do not fall into the falsehood that the illegals are kind people, sweet people, and loving people with sorrows and heartaches, and they just happen to be illegal.  Or that they are most righteous (ie, probably 95% godly), compared to those who reject the validity of their presence (probably 1% godly).  Scriptures show in its denunciation of fallen cultures that we are to refrain from canonizing a group as great saints, unless they are indeed living for Christ. 

Self-righteousness does not recognize its own evils, but only the evils of others that it would prefer to magnify.  This is what happens when other races feel their own race or culture being oppressed.  A good example I have noticed in history books and National Geographic is this: White people are evil, but the black/Native American/South American cultures are innocent and sweet, and living in such perfect harmony and righteousness until those European Caucasian Christian capitalists came to spread their wickedness.

Of course no one would mention in a Black Panther or Taliban gathering that those utterly evil "white people" have names, sorrows, and heartaches too.  Once you demonize a group, it ceases to have a noble face.  If it appears that this is what I have done with the illegals, I apologize.  From Scripture, I should know and honor that they are made in the image of God.  They have their own trials, like we all do.  They have the potential to be redeemed and made wise by the power of Christ.

 But whatever trial they have does not justify their desire to disobey the laws of nations as they please. If I have a very sick child and I have no financial means to take him to the doctor, I will not say I am justified in stealing things from a rich man's mansion.  It is evil and seed for anarchy, when respect for property disappears. Even if that rich man acquired those riches illegally, I cannot be Robin Hood correcting such an evil by doing more evil.  For what then happens if every man is his own god, each one judging who is acquiring things unlawfully to justify his own theft of their property? 

I can change the group's name to "undocumented", and the content of my message would still be the same.  Should I be faulted for calling them "illegal" or "undocumented", in my desire to be clear about who I am referring to?  It is not insensitivity to their own pain that I am seeking to do.  I reject their desire to take away the pain and sorrow of poverty by being illegal in America, which is no different from what true citizens do when they disobey other laws of their nation, and of God.  That is where I focus my attention. 

I am not defending the rules on who should be legal or not, but on establishing respectable order that must be kept until more and more eyes are being increasingly opened by God.  If people would not seek to obey the laws of Caesar, is it really because they want to be faithful to God's holy commandments?  Or do they just want to exalt anarchy and maximize their own gains, regardless of who shall be hurt by their disobedience?  Aren't these the real questions that matter most to God?

Jaime

[Rberman]

By "the illegals" do you mean the millions of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ, who have names and families and hopes and dreams and heartbreak, and they happen not to be here legally...do you mean them?

Yep. Those people who "happen not to be here legally" because they broke the laws of our country in order to enjoy its benefits.  You make it sound like their presence is some kind of accident, rather than a choice they made.

[Tyleragain]

Yep. Those people who "happen not to be here legally" because they broke the laws of our country in order to enjoy its benefits.  You make it sound like their presence is some kind of accident, rather than a choice they made.

I fully understand that there are here illegally and most often willfully. But I think referring to a group of people simply as "the illegals" does a darn fine job of oversimplifying (and by extension vilifying) a people group by identifying them by one ugly trait they share. What if I started to refer to all PCA'ers as "the idolaters"? It's true, but not exactly a fair representation all things considered.

[PeLLeAs5]

Yep. Those people who "happen not to be here legally" because they broke the laws of our country in order to enjoy its benefits.  You make it sound like their presence is some kind of accident, rather than a choice they made.

I fully understand that there are here illegally and most often willfully. But I think referring to a group of people simply as "the illegals" does a darn fine job of oversimplifying (and by extension vilifying) a people group by identifying them by one ugly trait they share. What if I started to refer to all PCA'ers as "the idolaters"? It's true, but not exactly a fair representation all things considered.

Your analogy is faulty.  Christians, though they often break God's law, are not characterized as law-breakers for two reasons: 1) their guilt-debt has been paid, and 2) they wage war against their flesh, which leads them to dispel sin characteristically over and against reveling in or justifying their sin.

Illegal aliens have neither had their guilt-debt paid, nor, do I suspect, are the majority of them fighting to abide by the law as opposed to justifying why they are here or reveling in their ambitions.

Is it vilifying to call a "murderer" someone who willfully kills another?  Is it vilifying to call a "thief" someone who willfully takes from another?  If an illegal alien wishes to repent of their lawbreaking, then they should.  And doing so implies that they will take the steps necessary to abide by the existing laws until such a time as they are changed, be they just or unjust in nature.

Be wary of letting the blind prejudice of others who hate illegal aliens be reason to reject law-abiding and law-respecting responsibilities that are also God-honoring in their essential nature.

[faithofjob777]

Yep. Those people who "happen not to be here legally" because they broke the laws of our country in order to enjoy its benefits.  You make it sound like their presence is some kind of accident, rather than a choice they made.

I fully understand that there are here illegally and most often willfully. But I think referring to a group of people simply as "the illegals" does a darn fine job of oversimplifying (and by extension vilifying) a people group by identifying them by one ugly trait they share. What if I started to refer to all PCA'ers as "the idolaters"? It's true, but not exactly a fair representation all things considered.

It is just a way of communicating which group of people is being discussed here.  Your example of idolaters=PCAers is not a good one at all, I would think, because the term "idolaters" is very broad.  There will be poor communication, if the words we use to discuss specific things all have far too broad a meaning.

Be specific:  a Roman Catholic is a papist (honoring the papacy and its doctrines).  PCAers are Reformed Christians or Calvinists (following Calvinistic doctrine).  Legals are those who have citizenship through legal means, illegals are those who are not citizens, but are here unlawfully.  These are accurate terms; and even if some of the words may be tainted by sheer disdain expressed by bigots who use them, it does not mean the terms automatically lose their usefulness to convey which people we are referring to here.  Even if they do not define the entirety of what the group is, it makes communication much easier.  Guns are not the problem, words are not the problem, but how people use them.

Instead of being concerned about use of certain terms, we should focus more on the content of what is being said about them.  Otherwise, we are simply trying to attack some whom we do not agree with by a technicality.  We have nothing else really to say if that is the case.  If there is any kind of hint that using the word 'illegals" here strongly suggests bigotry, then that is just way too simple-minded an assumption.  The prophets and apostles used far harsher terms to describe the sinning Israelites and pagans, without losing sight that God's grace remains in redeeming whom He has chosen from among them.  A good Christian can say that certain people are "illegals", and discuss their evils and the evils of the citizens, while hoping for their repentance and the mercy of God on their plight.

Jaime

[Rberman]

Yep. Those people who "happen not to be here legally" because they broke the laws of our country in order to enjoy its benefits.  You make it sound like their presence is some kind of accident, rather than a choice they made.

I fully understand that there are here illegally and most often willfully. But I think referring to a group of people simply as "the illegals" does a darn fine job of oversimplifying (and by extension vilifying) a people group by identifying them by one ugly trait they share. What if I started to refer to all PCA'ers as "the idolaters"? It's true, but not exactly a fair representation all things considered.

Depends on what you mean by "idolaters" I suppose.  If that's a synonym for "sinners" then I'd own it, and I'd talk about the remedy: the blood of Christ.  What remedy would you prescribe for people who continue to be unlawfully in our country?

[Westmin]

"What remedy would you prescribe for people who continue to be unlawfully in our country?"

A one way ticket back from where they came.

[thisistim]

By "the illegals" do you mean the millions of people who are made in the image and likeness of God, many of whom are brothers and sisters in Christ, who have names and families and hopes and dreams and heartbreak, and they happen not to be here legally...do you mean them?

This is beside the point.  All that you said above could have been said of Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Pagan Rome, or the Southern Baptist Church. 

[kevin47]

But I think referring to a group of people simply as "the illegals" does a darn fine job of oversimplifying (and by extension vilifying) a people group by identifying them by one ugly trait they share.

I think you are conflating political shorthand with personal assessment.  It's similar to the pro-life/pro-choice debate.  There are those who describe themselves as "pro-life", but who believe abortion should be legal. 

All this introduces is a banal semantic discussion, yes? If people are here illegally, they should no longer be so.  Do you agree? If not, why?

[faithofjob777]

Another tongue-in-cheek comment from a Yahoo! poster:

Dear President Obama:

I'm planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

We're planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico , and we'll need your help to make a few arrangements.

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.

I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I'm on my way over?

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. Please print all Mexican Government forms in English.

4. I want my grand-kids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.

5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my grand-kids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.

7. Please plan to feed my grand-kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but I don't plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won't make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my housetop, put U S. flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.

13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely nice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.

14. I want to receive free food stamps.

15. Naturally, I'll expect free rent subsidies.

16. I'll need income tax credits so that although I don't pay Mexican taxes, I'll receive money from the government.

17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Government pays $4,500.00 to help me buy a new car.

18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I'll get a monthly income in retirement.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to the U.S. from Mexico . I am sure that President Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

Thank you so much for your kind help.

You're the man!!!